13 Aug 2006

A Lesson on Basic Politics? – Listen to both sides of the story

Another reply on a TODAY article. Our Senior Minister, who makes a comment about Middle East politics, needs to get his facts right.

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I read with disdain and alarm on the report, entitled, “A lesson on basic politics; It was wrong decision for Hezbollah to 'test' Israel's new Prime Minister: SM Goh”

It appears that the TODAY news report has painted a one-sided view of the current Israel - Lebanon conflict. Our SM has also chosen to comment on an issue which is seemingly pro-Israel and US; and does not reflect my views as a Singaporean.

As such, I felt it necessary to write in to clarify, with the hope that my letter will be published and to allow Singaporeans to form their own opinions.

While PM Goh felt that the capturing of the two Israeli soldiers is a good reason for Israel to start the war, the truth is far more complicated. The capturing of the Israeli soldiers was to negotiate a prisoner exchange - swapping them for Samir Kuntar and other Lebanese prisoners held by Israel.

TODAY also reported that our PM “gave another take on the Israeli point of view, which is that Hezbollah wants to destroy all of Israel and its people.”

This is again not the entire truth. Hezbollah was formed to combat the Israeli occupation following the 1982 invasion of Lebanon which fundamentally opposes the existence of the Israeli state; BUT not to kill or annihilate Israel or its people.

In Hezbollah's website, there is a distinction between "Zionist ideology" and Judaism. The former is an attitude across "races, religions, and nationalities". Zionism is defined as "the concept of creating 'Israel' by the use of force and violence, by stealing the Arabs’ lands and killing Palestinians". "[O]pposing the Zionists ideology is not opposing setting a home for Jews".

What is of most significance important at this immediate point in time is a ceasefire, rather than openly supporting the Israel or Lebanon government as our SM has done; as innocent civilians from both countries are suffering from the wanton destruction of warfare.

In particular in Lebanon, its infrastructures such as the Beirut airport, residential buildings, ambulances, United Nations posts and personnel, ports, bridges, roads, factories, medical and relief trucks, mobile telephone and television stations, fuel containers and service stations has been destroyed by Israeli air strikes.

According to a BBC report, “Hezbollah 'will observe UN truce' “ dated 12 August 2006, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4787179.stm, “more than 1,000 Lebanese and more than 120 Israelis have been killed in the conflict since Hezbollah militants captured two Israeli soldiers on 12 July in a cross-border raid.”

A lesson on basic politics
It was wrong decision for Hezbollah to 'test' Israel's new Prime Minister: SM Goh
Friday • August 11, 2006

Call it an outsider's point of view or call it Politics 101, but Senior Minister Goh Chok Tong believes Hezbollah should not have captured two Israeli soldiers five weeks ago.

The move by the Islamist organisation preceded Israel's offensive in Lebanon, which has now killed more than 1,000 people.

While he described the conflict as a tragedy, Mr Goh called it a wrong decision to test Israel's leader Ehud Olmert, who was sworn in as Prime Minister two months before the abduction.

"When two soldiers are kidnapped, a new Prime Minister must not show weakness; that is basic politics," said Mr Goh, who was speaking two weeks ago to journalists from the Middle East.

He gave another take on the Israeli point of view, which is that Hezbollah wants to destroy all of Israel and its people.

Mr Goh revealed his own shock to hear that the militia group had 13,000 missiles not under the control of the Lebanese government.

"Therefore, Israel says if that is your aim, I must disarm you, and this is in fact its motive," he said, in a report Wednesday by Arab News.

On Iran's involvement in the current conflict, he described it as speculation but added: "I do have reports that some Iranian Revolutionary Guards have been killed among Hezbollah fighters. What are they doing there? Are they supplying missiles to Hezbollah?"

Asked if the Islamic Shia organisation was fighting a war on behalf of Iran, he said: "I think it is in part a war on behalf of Iran."

Still, he said he is hopeful the conflict will not engulf the region.

"The Americans don't want an expansion because Washington has enough problems in Iraq and America would be vital to Israeli success if the war was expanded. Israel, on its own, will not expand to involve Iran and Syria. That would be very risky," he said.

What is needed for a ceasefire to be called, he said, is to "get the friends of both involved in order to calm things down".

For a long-term solution, he called on Palestinians and Hezbollah to recognise Israel's right to exist.

"That's important because if others don't recognise Israel's existence, then what is there for Israel to do other than fight and destroy you?" he asked. "Israel also must recognise the rights of others."

Mr Goh said that Singapore is just an outsider to the current Middle East problem, as the conflict is too big for the city-state to play a role in resolving. The big powers have to settle it in the United Nations.

"We would be happy to express a view on the conflict based on principles and we have done so. We aim to be even-handed," he said.

"We don't take the side of Israel or the Palestinians; we look at the problem as outsiders and we express our view of a particular problem.

"It is a kind of principled role which we hope we can play in the United Nations. We must always argue from the basis of justice, equality, fairness."

Copyright MediaCorp Press Ltd. All rights reserved.

40 comments:

Anonymous said...

I read with concern, the letter from a Singaporean criticising our leader's Pro-US and pro-Israel position. He should be just labelled a terrorist sympathiser and our Internal Security Dept will deal with him.

Our ties to US & Israel has brought about much security to our Nation. Although the govt warns us about terrorism and terrorist acts that may be committed on Singaporeans taking MRT, we can be sure that our nation is safe as it is well protected by the SAF with arms purchased from our friend the USA. As such we should continue to support the US and conduct drills and preparation against terrorist acts. This is a wise and well considered position to be pro-Israeli and pro-USA. It is all done in the interest of safety for our citizens.

The constant warning and fear of terrorist acts committed against us due to our pro-USA and pro-Israeli position serve to remind us that our wise leaders have made a wise decision to keep this country safe by being pro-American.

We must continue to support our Americans friend and Israeli despite their accidental acts committed against civilians has brought about much hatred and justifications for terrorist acts because the US supplies us with advanced weapons such as the Apache and F15 that will secure the peace for us in years to come.

Although we are now targets of terrorists, we are actually safer because the SAF is better equipped against an imaginary threat that we have created in our minds. So we should feel safer because during National Day we can see all the advanced weapons on parade and sleep well at night provided we are vigilant against unattended bags that may show up in the MRT.

Trowa Evans said...

That's a good response to the SM article. I don't read TODAY but I would have given the same comments had I done so. Hopefully they will publish it.

Singaporean-Born said...

I Concur.

Besides the threat of terrorism by ANY country, we must also not forget the hegemonism of countries like China who supported and ARMED the communist terrorists in our early fragile years of independence. Many were killed during the 10-year Malayan Emergency and subsequently.

Remember the CPM (Communist Party of Malaya) which did NOT recognise the our nationhood and even the formation of Malaysia.

What if the communists and the terrorists had won the day and what would become of Singapore ?

It is common knowledge today that if the US had not intervened and got themselves involved in the Vietnam War, our SE Asian countries could have fallen to the communists.

The Vietnam War bought us enough time for us to develop economically (eg. we also benefited from this War from the port, bunkering services, and R & R facilities to US warships, etc..)
and to develop our fledging armed forces.

Since the 80s, China has claimed the Spratlys - islands that were thousands from them. This has incease our very own security concerns as these islands are nearer to us.


The Pol Pot of Cambodia that killed more than 3 million people had the support of China. This regime also spread TERROR amongst its own people. State-sponsored Terrorism, too.

SO, all forms of terrorism need to be condemned, unless one is fighting for one's freedom.
(eg East Timor, S. Africa, etc...)

I know that there is FINE line between all these - legitimate or otherwise. I do not claim to have all the answers, too, like all of us.

I am glad we have the US and other allies who NEVER had undermined our country by subversion. These are the 'better' friends of Singapore.

Look at Myanmar and the problems and embarassments it created for ASEAN. It is well reported in the press that Myanmar is able to do what it does because of the tacit support of China.

Likewsie for N. Korea.


I personally hope that we know our friends. I am not pro-US blindly and they are also not fault-free (they supported dictators like Shah of Iran, Marcos of Philippines, and in countries like Nicaragua and many more). That will be another chapter.

I am just putting things in perspective.

Perhaps better to live with a 'lesser' and more 'benign' devil.

Anonymous said...

I do not feel the senior minister is in any position to comment on world politics. World leaders would not be interests in little singapore's opinions.

Singapore always warns people to keep out of their island politics, singapore should stay away from world politics.

The sm's today feature was totally one sided. the man is a local politician without knowledge of what happends in the rest of the world.

Anonymous said...

In this instance, I concur with SM.

It's not @ prisoner exchange or territory as Israel has withdrawn from Lebanon as verified by UN.

What if 2 sons of Singapore being kidnapped and a number killed in the same ambush, shall we negotiate while they continue to stockpile their missiles?

skl said...

If Hezbollah didn't have their military camps in the midst of concetrated towns, those places wouldn't have been targets and the civilians would not have died. The truth is that these terrorist organizations don't really give a damn about human lives, be it enemies or one of their own. The civilian deaths are just brownie points for them. If they really cared about the innocent, they wouldn't be the cowards they are, hiding among civilians and towns and risking innocent lives.

teck soon said...

Did SM Goh actually make a grammatical error in his statement in the headline "It was wrong decision for Hezbollah to 'test' Israel's new Prime Minister: SM Goh"?

"It was wrong decision..." Did the paper actually print it that way? If so, it seems really bad. Shouldn't it be "It was a wrong decision..."?

Anonymous said...

"Look at Myanmar and the problems and embarassments it created for ASEAN. It is well reported in the press that Myanmar is able to do what it does because of the tacit support of China."

You've got to be kidding right. Besides china lets not forget our own PAP is pretty cosy with the military junta as well.

Anonymous said...

I agree with SM Goh in this instance.

Israel has been withdrawing its troops from contentious territory and has been at the receiving ends of endless provocations like "we're gonna wipe u off the map!!" without retaliation. The voting in of a centre left government is also an indication of the Israelites' desire for peace and negotiations in dealing with the Arabs.

The kidnapping of the soldiers by Hizbollah has to be the last straw. What do you expect Israel to do? Sit back and smile? forgive thy neighbour? Invite Hizbollah members to an enclosed field to fight it out so that civilians will not die? A lesson on basic politics is indeed on the plate for many Arab leaders. They have better learn it well for the good of their descendants.

Anonymous said...

there seems to be two differing stories about the soldiers. some reported that hezbollah went into Israeli territory while others reported that Israel were having exercises in Lebanese territory.

who provoked the violence is still unclear. but what is clear both were itching for a fight.

ycbi said...

Anonymous said...
I read with concern, the letter from a Singaporean criticising our leader's Pro-US and pro-Israel position. He should be just labelled a terrorist sympathiser and our Internal Security Dept will deal with him.

Talk about a PAP lacky !! All Charles in his article was saying is that the SM gave a one sided report. He was pointing out both sides of the problem, he did not give his own views one way or the other but was stating that singaporeans need to be given the facts so they can make up ther own minds. Of cource for the PAP to evan think that singaporeans can think for them selves is way too hard for them to understand .

Matilah_Singapura said...

What's all the fuss about reports in local media being "one-sided". Of course it is going to be "one-sided"!

Yes, many people are unaware about the distinction between Zionism and being a simple Jew who seeks nothing more than following the scriptures.

Zionism is political — it seeks "political " solutions. A similar concept was the idea of "manifest destiny" practised by (predominantly) white Christian(??) males in the 17 and 18th centuries. Some people (conspiracy theorists) believe that "manifest destiny"is still going on, and is being "promoted" by certain groups and organisations such as The Biderbergers, The Club of Rome, Freemasons, Bohemian Grove, etc, ad infinitum.

Similarly, militant, radical Islam is also POLITICISED.

To be able to wage war, one thing must first occur: POLITICS. Without politics it is impossible to muster the resources for organised violence/defence/combat on a massive scale. No private organisation/group or individual can ever muster such massive resources to wage war on another politicised ideology, state, religion...whatever.

Many folks also miss the point about the Middle East — the fight is not predominently RELIGIOUS. It is, always has been and always will be over TERRITORY (land). Of course when you add politics and religion to the mix; then add a dash of oil politics, international finance etc., you get a very potent and volatile result — hence the untold and seemingly unending amount of "action" in that region.

Wars never solved anything. However the situation is "normal". Heavy fighting and brutality in the Middle East is NORMAL. Everything arises from a spontaneous order, and the conditions surrounding race, politics, religion, land and history are just right for the emergence of a constant state of war.

So be it. Go long on oil futures. Go short on US dollars.

Human beings are a war-like species. enjoy the "entertainment" provided by your fellow-man who are sacrificing their lives so as to create GREAT CONTENT for the TV news.

IMO, the US and Israel should nuke the region — begining with IRAN. The US can reclaim the oil which is rightfully theirs, and Israel can set up a model democracy if the Mid East is to be repopulated (post nuclear clensing)

Then we perhaps can enjoy some peace, and our INFIDEL FREEDOMS until the next buch of lunatics decide to disrupt humanity again, with their shitty ideas!

Go Israel! Go USA!

The worst thing to do is to put the idiots, socialists and collectivists of the UN in charge.

Matilah_Singapura said...

BTW, I have a "problem" with the positions of Lee KY and Goh CT.

I think their position is wimpy. I think they are scared to lose respect from investors and JV partners in Dubai, Oman and suchlike. I think they are also too concerned about S'pore being surrounded by Muslim countries.

I don't agree on their positions or opinions at all. I disagree with their positions being pro-Israel or pro-US.

A clear pro-Israel or pro-US position is this:

NUKE THE JIHADIST BASTARDS!

Inquisitor said...

The call for the recognition of Israel's right to exist is a call for the recognition of the powerful to define what is right. We must not forget the historical fact that the British, Americans and Russians, with the full support of, first, the 'League of Nations', and then, the 'United Nations' - which was and is basically an institution formed to maintain the colonial-imposed status quo - took Arab land and gave it away to the Jews. Thus, to call for the recognition of this state is to call for the right of the Colonialists, because they were powerful, to do as they pleased with what they acquired.

Though i'm not well-informed of politics in your region, i believe that whilst the relatively less informed lay person might be excused for harbouring such views due to her or his ignorance of historical and perspectival knowledge, for a politician/s who is seemingly educated to hold such views would imply that s/he believes that 'Power', as opposed to 'Reason', ought to be the definer of what is 'Right' or 'Rights'. From such a stance, one would be able to extrapolate her or his views of those s/he administers in relation to her/imself. As far as human rights, reason, justice, accountability and democracy is concerned, it would not be illogical to assume that these would be anathema to such a person. One would thus not be ill-advised to avoid elevating such an individual/s to any position of power.

Matilah_Singapura said...

There is little point in plaing the "chain blame game".

As long as there are going to be states, those governments in charge of the states will make HUGE mistakes.

It is true successive English governments fucked up the borders and the politics — by playing both the Arab and Jewish sides, for example — but that is all in the past now.

The Chain-Blame Game is played by many of the "victim" groups: blacks in the US, abos in Oz etc. These "victims" simply won't accept the fact that every individual is responsible for himself — regardless of what happened to his ancestors, or whoever was or is to blame for him becoiming a "victim" in the first place.

But these "victims" are not the worst of human kind. The worst bunch of humans are those guilty (mostly white) so-called "Christian" Do-Gooders.

You see the same type of prick these days as apologists for Islamic Jihad... One prominent example is Michael Moore. Notice the "Chain Blame Game" in his films. He takes the viewer on a historical journey, showing who started what 200 or so years ago, and how it is somehow "relevant" to the events occuring today.

What these "progressives" forget, is that people have FREE WILL. Just because something aweful happend to your ancestors, doesn't mean you have a God or Allah (Praise be unto Him) given right to behave like an muderous asshole.

Similarly, just because someone is "needy" doesn't give them the "right" to the property of others (as is the case in a "welfare state")

When the Chain Blame Game becomes democratically popular, no one needs to take any personal responsibility for their lives anymore.

It is certainly heading that way. Life on this planet is going to become very interesting indeed! ;-)

Anonymous said...

if you want concise history of the region try here: -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922_Text:_League_of_Nations_Palestine_Mandate

It makes for an interesting read

Anonymous said...

Does SMGoh's comments represent the view of the government? What is the stance of MFA?

Anonymous said...

matilah singapura.. wad the shit r u blabbering abt? I mean I'm pro Israel too but you are....#$@#!@%^???

Anonymous said...

Asw an outsider it take4s common sense to see just why singapore has become anti jewish, with their own country heaving with partially educated malays and two borders with heavy muslim populations.

but be careful singapore, the jews always hold the purse strings.

ity is also interesting to note singapore has not or ever will send their soldiers to any peace keeping force. there is only one name for this cowardis.

Anonymous said...

tony blair was brave; not sure about how UK people feel about that bravery these days

Medusa aka expiringpoet said...

Singapore being flanked on all sides by Muslim countries are in a similar position to Israel in the Mid-East. Interesting geographical similarities.
Singapore has always shown it's alignment to US and Israel, not because these countries are RIGHT and Palestine or Lebanon are WRONG, but because US and Israel have the super-military and the big money. It's simple theory of aligning yourself with the strongest so that your Muslim neighbours would never dare to attack you. Because you are best friends and good brothers with the US.
Who cares who makes the terrorists a terrorist in the first place. Who cares if they are fighting for their right to live like normal human beings?
Who cares that there are hundreds of Muslim children being detained and killed by the Isreal Defence Army or the 6000 civilians still imprisoned? Who cares that the Isreal Army systematically bombs all the factory buildings and stops imports and exports into Palestine so that they people find it impossible to survive or that they live below the poverty line?

Oh well. At the end of the day human lives are cheap and there are ignorant masses in singapore who still believe our PM or SM is right in siding with the people who would sell their souls to the devil for political power.

Matilah_Singapura said...

Human lives are *not* cheap.

But to a terrorist they are, becasue he/she doesn't even value his/her own life.

Ask yourself this: what kind of religious/philosophical doctrine supports the brain washing of young children to encourage them to "jihad" — to bomb people taking vacations or just sitting in coffee shops minding their own business. e.g. in Palestine, even kid's cartoons have the message to "kill all Israelis and infidels".

Now, what the fuck kind of society would do this? An evil one.

Militant Islam has always had a *major problem* with individual freedom — especially if that individual is behaving "immorally" — if he's gay, or likes to drink booze, or gamble, or be "westernised" in any way.

The jihadists just can't stand to see people being free and happy. To him, everyone must be "terrorised" in some way...

The US and Israel have a lovely arsenal of tactical nukes. Damn, they're showing far to much restraint in their use. The whole idea is to make this shit go away, so that the "infidel class" (my kinda people) can get back to having a grand old time on this planet... doing whatever the fuck we please.

Nuke 'em, so that we might be free...AGAIN!

Where's Maggie Thatcher and Ronald Reagan when you need 'em? Mr Reagan, please come back to earth! Baroness Thatcher, kick that wus Blair out of No.10!

Medusa aka expiringpoet said...

"Ask yourself this: what kind of religious/philosophical doctrine supports the brain washing of young children to encourage them to "jihad"

---
Matilah, how appropriate your nic to your points of view that to "nuke" kill and murder is the easiest solution? Maybe its fun for you to see entire families being blown apart by bombs?

Islam views killing as a sin.
But it does permit a man to engage in war IN DEFENCE of his family, home and religion.
This is logical. You won't standby and watch if someone were to suddenly take out a knife with the intent to kill your loved ones or neighbour now, would you?

Now if you had done your research or bothered to read history further for example, to find out what the Democracy and World Rights Center had documented in 2003 about the systemic human rights abuses conducted by Israel, you would realize that the "terrorist" could perhaps be you, if you had been put into a similar situation. Take away the right to live in a home without fear of it being flattened by tanks, take away the right to going to school without worrying you will be killed by gunfire, take away the right to earn any sort of decent living. Take away the right for the world to help you in any way or recognize that your rights as a human being has been abused. This is what most of the terrorists have been going thru. When you are left with nothing, do you still stand by quietly?


"Militant Islam has always had a *major problem* with individual freedom — especially if that individual is behaving "immorally" — if he's gay, or likes to drink booze, or gamble, or be "westernised" in any way."

----Why is it that when Islam prohibits alcohol, gambling, gay sex, it's viewed as "militant". Are you ignorant of the fact that these are the same views that Christianity shares? But you would never label Christianity "militant" i'm sure. Again, if you had bothered to find out, you would realize that most muslim countries do not throw a muslim into prison for "boozing" or gay sex or whatever it is that's your grievance.

In short, I hope you get an education cos it's really sad to see you ranting like this with no real clue as to what's happening.

~[z][x]~ said...

Medusa...

Your biased view does not appeal to me anymore than the emotional plea of Matilah.

I think it's good to look at things in context. Digging up the history of conflict between Islam and the West/Israel serves no purpose, as both sides would claim to have unaddressed grievances that would, on an emotional level, justify certain policies and actions today that are clearly inhumane and ridiculous.

For all that you have faulted of Israel, you have perhaps failed to see that for the past 2 years leading to this conflict, Israel has been withdrawing its troops from Palestinian soil and the Israelites have voted in a centrist party which believes more in negotiations than confrontation. I see this as an indication of the Israelites' desire for the rebuilding of peace and trust with their Arab neighbours, DESPITE their neighbours' unreasonable insistence that their nation does not exist.

Taking into account the above context,

"Islam views killing as a sin.
But it does permit a man to engage in war IN DEFENCE of his family, home and religion.
"

>> What is Hizbollah defending in the kidnapping of the 2 Israelite soldiers, which sparked off the whole war? I mean I would understand if for the past 2 years, Israelites have been "taking out a knife with the intent to kill your loved ones or neighbour", but the fact proves otherwise! And really, "Engaging in war in defence of one's religion" is an obscure phrase of which boundaries have to be drawn to prevent zealots from utilizing violence to impose their religious beliefs on others. Is it right to kill and burn because people of another religion make fun of your religious icons (The cartoons in Denmark)? Is it right to murder someone for converting away from your religion (Abdul Rahman)? The zealots say they are "defending their religion", but I think most thinking people would not agree that incidents as such should justify violence.

"Why is it that when Islam prohibits alcohol, gambling, gay sex, it's viewed as "militant". Are you ignorant of the fact that these are the same views that Christianity shares?"

Because Christians today do not chop off the heads, or cane publicly or issue a fatwa against those who commit "offences towards God"?? I believe when Matilah used the word "militant", it is used not to describe the Koran prohibiting certain vices but rather, the path many Muslims adhere to today in the prohobition of these vices. No one is stopping you from abstaining from what you think is "haram" or sinful. But why impose it on another party? And why use VIOLENCE??


Going back to the Middle East conflict, why do Muslims make such a din in charging Israel for a "disproportionate use of force", compared to the inaudible mumble during 9/11 in US, or 11/3 in Spain, or 7/7 in UK?? Where are the fatwas against Al Qaeda and gang?? Why not wage Jihad on these terrorist groups for misusing the name of Islam to murder thousands if you can wage Jihad against infidels for committing the same crime? If you need a reason why moderate Muslims or the suffering Palestinians are deprived of sympathy, think along this line...

KiWeTO said...

seperation of church and state.

unfortunately, in this case, both church and state are hopelessly interwined.

As for the statement:
"most muslim countries do not throw a muslim in to prison for boozing or gay sex"

I think you might also want to consider seeking an education, due to your easily refutable assertions.



E.o.M.

Anonymous said...

The problem gentlemen is that you have never sgtudied early history, and I am talking about the Holy Wars. We still face the threat of a continued holy war. Christians and muslims, and that includes jews will fight to the bitter end.

Ok Israel had lay down its arms once again. but you within a year another 'war' will flare up in the middle east.

Until there is an outright winner, the annihilation of the west or islam, the fight will continue. however, pretty soon, islam will develop nuclear weapons and use them, unless usa or israel hit the button first.

and please matilah do not mention the words maggie thatcher, she did enough trouble when she was in power, that is why today the lady does not even receive a christmas or birthdaya card.

so you see todays middle east problem is only a continuation of what happened in the early part of the twelth century.

~[z][x]~ said...

"The middle east problem is a continuation of what happened in the early part of the twelth century."

Now that's a pointless assertion. I can be more ridiculous than you by saying it's a problem started at 1000 BC - Who, exactly, received Abraham's blessings to reign in the promised land? Was it Ishmael, as the Muslims claim? Or Issac, as the Jews and Christians claim??

Most conflicts/wars that this planet has witnessed have historical/religious roots, if you want to trace and trace and trace. People do not just start killing each other for the fun of it. But that does not mean we sit down and sigh and think that only if one side is completely killed will there be peace. In addition, the concept of "Holy Wars" is a deadly poison that must be purged. War is not HOLY, period. Christians, Muslims and Jews and anyone who has brains must all acknowledge that there is nothing HOLY in the slaying of innocent lives, and that if there is a GOD he wouldn't possibly enjoy seeing children being slaughtered, before they can sit down together and negotiate for peace. Of course, the recognition of each other's "existence" is imperative as well (One factor why Israel has to resort to force all the time).

"Until there is an outright winner, the annihilation of the west or islam, the fight will continue"

This is the sort of thinking that fuels the extremists of both sides of the conflicts - the right wing factions in Israel and Hamas/Hizbollah. I stand in condemnation of it.

Matilah_Singapura said...

anon 1:40

> The problem gentlemen is that you have never sgtudied early history, and I am talking about the Holy Wars. <

Do I detect some intellectual arrogance here? Anon 140, you have some outrageous presumptions here.

History may be interesting to see how things have evolved. But it is not "the answer".

As I've mentioned before, if people get stuck in the Chain Blame Game, then there can be no "win-win" resolution.

What if:

1 The Chinese economy and society "failed" and then blamed the Jap WW2 brutality for it?

2 Singapore "failed" and blamed it on British Colonial exploitation, Jap conquest, and bigotry by Malaysia?

Similarly, you get this "OH POOR ME" victimhood-bullshit from:

1 Black people (niggers) whose ancestors were taken as slaves.

2 Abo's (coons) in Aust who's children where stolen by the state

3 Indians in N and S Americas (injuns) whose ancestors were conquered.

How come Indians in the sub contitnent don't make a hoo hah about British colonisation — they've transcended that and put in the EFFORT for self-determination?

How come Singapore, Malaysis and Hong Kong have done the same — they've refused to be "victims" of "oppression".

OTOH, the American music industry runs on the idea of "victimised blacks". If it didn't, folks like James Brown wouldn't have hits like: "I'm Black and I'm Proud (So Shout it Out Loud)"

Victim-hood sells — books, movies, entertainment - many advertisers use "victimhood" to create perceived "need". Many people identify with being a victim, and so they buy into the bullshit!!

Anonymous said...

why the middle east conflict began is irrelevant. however, the battle still continues, and both sides will continue fighting to the end.

Anonymous said...

Sad to hear Goh Chok Tong's views.

I don't understand why on one hand Singapore wants to improve her relationship with Middle Eastern countries, and on the other side it is supporting Israel's unjust aggression against innocent Lebanese people.

I think Middle Eastern countries should take good note of this. They don't need to attend "Asia-Middle East Forums" arranged and hosted in the city-state, and nor welcome Lee Kuan Yew to Saudi Arabia, Dubai and the region.

Singapore is all for money. Arabs, watch out. They want money aka foreign investment from oil-rich Middle Eastern countries. They don't care for human lives lost - whether children, eldery or women.

Arabs, you are warned. And Singaporeans too. Your leaders take unjust positions.

Yet, I pray. May Singapore not be a Lebanon, and Singaporeans don't have to live like Lebanese.

~[z][x]~ said...

i agree with matilah. And anon 06:48, nope. You missed the point. Why the middle east conflict begain is NOT irrelevant, but it is simply not the "ANSWER". That is, one should look at history and learn valuable lessons on how to prevent similar conflicts from happening, but not be as retarded as to link what's happening to what happened in the past and shrug and say nothing can be done!

Anon 12:19...

What are you talking about??? Why should the Singapore govt give a damn about every single citizen of a state/a region that it has trade deals with? You write as if Singapore is a superpower nation that has large influential power over the domestic and foreign policies of other nations. And really, voicing out that Hizbollah, a terrorist organization, is wrong to have started the conflict and tested Israel's new PM is not equivalent to "supporting Israel's unjust aggression against innocent Lebanese people". That is a dishonest exaggeration.

"They don't care for human lives lost - whether children, eldery or women"

Well what about you? Do you care? Did you boycott Macs when the USA invaded Iraq and killed innocent civilians? Did you pledge to stop buying any Jap products when Koizuimi inflamed the region by visiting the Yasakuni Shrine 2 days ago? Or why not cease living under the protection of the Singapore Armed Forces altogether, of which has ties and was influenced greatly in the past by the Israeli Armed Forces? I mean, of which moral highground, really, are you speaking from?

Anonymous said...

Why is Islam getting pulled into all this? Those who comment, have you ever cared to read what Islam says.. (please read from a book/website authored by a Islamic scholar. NOT from a journalist or Christian or Jewish scholar). If you still have a problem them it is worth discussing. Otherwise it is as good as you learning math from a English teacher and commenting on a math formula.

About Israel, what is the root of all problems?
If west wanted to take care of Jews after they were ill-treated by Hitler, then why did they not share their own land for them? How is it fair to take away someone's land that actually gave them shelter? How would we react if we give shelter to someone in our house and next day they stake claim for a portion of our house?

~[z][x]~ said...

That's a lame and trite argument. One can argue that the Jews were on that land centuries ago, and there are historical evidences of that. Like i said, if you keep pointing to the "roots" of the problem, and keep using "historical" points to substantiate, the debate will eventually evolve to become "Ishmael vs Issac". You (people of your reasoning genre) are the very reason why Religion is being pulled into political discussions. Failure to look forward, eternal insistence of oneself being the "VICTIM" and blind loyalty to organizations that proclaim the same faith as you do.

What the present situation requires is two cool headed and rational parties to stop digging up what has happened before, look to the future and compromise for a peaceful solution. All this, so far, has been destroyed by Hizbollah's provocation.

Think about it. What is Hizbollah's main purpose of existence? What is their promise to their supporters? "Destroy the state of Israel". How can there be peace when there are groups like these existing? They thrive on conflicts and they gain publicity and purpose when there is violence and bloodshed. They must be disarmed.

Anonymous said...

I am jewish, the muslim is my natural enemy. I and will fight him until the end.

Anonymous said...

how is a muslim in Indonesia, Philippines or Xinjiang your enemy? of course, if you think they are your enemies, they would reciprocate; considering that Jews around the whole world are only a small no. of people, why do they want to make so many enemies?

Anonymous said...

the problem is my friend, jewish money rules the world, why did hitler kill more than six million of my countrymen during the last war, he was scared of their financial power.

it is only a question of money, muslim countries tend to be poor, jewish countries, and I include USA and Britain are rich.

Anonymous said...

how do you know I am your friend? I might be a muslim

I also dont see what you have to do with jewish financiars on wall street, or how killing 6 million jews in europe reduce their power

Anonymous said...

perhaps fundamentally

1) its All about politics, religon is a shield

2) people do not become terrorist for no apparent reasons-so what are the fundamental reasons? Do terrorist appear before Isreal in Lebanon-Palestinia or after that?

perhaps it is better to focus on this two fundamental questions before any further discussion

Anonymous said...

Let's exercise our mind a bit. Imaging Israel is Lebanon or Palestia instead, will the situation now still observed?

Anonymous said...

hardly necessary to make unrealistic imaginings; lebanon was a christian enclave but now has a muslim majority; israel's muslim population is increasing too, and its military seems to have lost its edge; better imagine what happens if these trends continue